Vick Is Still My Boy
This is a good post I came across, I think he makes some good points, so, let me explain further why I’m still behind him….
It seems to me that we’re a very hypocritical society in America. One minute we put someone on a pedestal and call him a god among men and then next we’re ready to stone him to death. Now, let me make this clear before I go on, I do NOT condone dogfighting or any sort of cruelity to animals. But let’s put it out there, at the end of the day, dogs are still dogs, they’re animals, not humans. We are persecuting Vick as if he has murdered a human being. As mentioned in the link above, this is a “sport” (I’m not calling it that) that has been going on for centuries and it doesn’t start or end with Vick. If Vick was a soccer player in Europe and accused of doing the same, I can assure you the penalities and public reaction would be much fairer than the treatment he’s getting here in the US. There is no other society in the world that treats dogs above human beings, it boggles my mind to know that most of the dogs in America live better lives than a lot of citizens of third world countries, now isn’t that sad as well? Do we value our pets more than another human being? I think Vick is being judged unfairly because he is a black athlete, can you imagine if it was Tom Brady, would you be slammed as hard? I think not. When black athletes and entertainers have children out of wedlock they are vilafied as deadbeats dads and oh that’s “typical behavior” for “them”. I think White America is still racist because no one really said a word or thought differently of Tom Brady after he fathered a child with his ex-girlfriend. Why because he wears Armani suits and golfs in the off-season, rather than wear braids and tattoos? Does anyone remember the Ram’s Leonard Little? After a drunken birthday in 1998, he crashed into and killed another motorist, Susan Gutweiler, a mother. When tested, his blood alcohol level measured 0.19 percent. Little received 90 days in jail, four years probation and 1000 hours of community service. Six years later, Little was again arrested for drunk driving and speeding. Little was acquitted of driving while intoxicated, but was convicted of the misdemeanor speeding charge. Was he banned from the league? no, of course not, what was his punishment? Oh, just a 3-year multi-million dollar extension with the Rams. Furthermore, how are we ready to burn Vick at the stake and ban him from our society for life, when our own President is guilty of killing thousands of Iraqi’s, Afghani’s, and our own U.S. soldiers. He didn’t physically kill them, but he is the “kingpin.” I think we as a society have a long way to go in becoming a fair society.
I think we’ll never know what Vick is actually guilty of at the end of the day because the Feds are looking for a target and they found they’re biggest one. All his so-called “friends” sold him out and as the article mentioned, there is no hard evidence that he was involved, but the concequences of going to trial are far greater than taking the plea. Honestly, I feel bad for him because while he may have known what his friends were doing, all he’s really guilty of is being stupidly loyal and if all of us take a hard look in the mirror, I’m sure we can agree we all have been caught in that situation before.
Keep your head up Mike and I will see you on the field again very soon.
???
The only thing worse than brutally killing a DEFENSELESS animal, is taking advantage of the innocence of a child. Yes, that’s right - Child Molesters/rapists, that’s as low as you can get, but Vick? He’s only a notch above.
Animals are animals???? These dogs, if were born and raised normally would not be potential time-bombs that are going to keep them from being adopted.
And while ‘we’ all placed him on a pedestal, he didn’t have to accept the $130 million contract, or the other $millions from endorsements if he didn’t want to be looked at as a ‘God’ of sorts. But he did, he accepted it all, and now everyone sees he cannot be trusted, at least not as the face of a franchise.
And we’ll never really know what he did? You nuts? There are testimonies, I mean, he AGREED TO A PLEA BARGAIN where he will be GUILTY!!! If he were innocent, he’d take it all to trial, and let the ‘facts’ come out (which he said at the very beginning, vehemently saying he was Innocent).
This guy sucks, and proves that human beings are well… human. But it shows that just cause you’re a fine specimen of athlete doesn’t mean you’re a good human being.
Smokin Joe said this on August 23rd, 2007 at 1:08 pm
And other than bein a Pats fan - for Brady I just wanted to say:
You may look down on him for fathering a child out of wed-lock, but he manned up to it, and has said he will participate as much as possible in the growth of said child. Instead of immediate Denial, or taking the matter to court, he accepted his fault and is doing what he can to remedy the situation.
By the way, his ex just gave birth and Brady has been there with her.
Smokin Joe said this on August 23rd, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I like Brady, I think he’s an excellent athlete, human being, all the above. I merely was using him as an example of where no one really judged him. There are plently of black athletes who father a child and support them, but society has certain stereotypes, which need to go away.
alisbasement said this on August 23rd, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Totally agreed. But things are changing, Vick had his share of supporters. I just really hope (as mentioned before) this opens the door to question the integrity of the NFL’s judgement policy.
That old cases that were relatively ignored were brought back into light, not as a reference as to punishing Vick, but as to how to best alleviate the current flawed situation.
I’d hate to think the US Dept. of Justice is using Vick to take out their aggression on the relatively ‘untouchable’ wealthy/athletes/celebrities. I’m for absolute fairness, but there is no such thing in a Free Market, which is what this all kind of runs on.
If anything, my rage has taken its aim at the NFLPA. The worst Players Union for possibly the Players who need it the most. Really a sad day and precedent for the NFLPA - not standing up and defending its own, Vick.
Smokin Joe said this on August 23rd, 2007 at 2:39 pm
And to bring some action to this thread - I just wanted to say thanks, and let you know your comments were highly appreciated.
I love hearing other people’s opinions, and typically, when my own words are called into question with good evidence/reason, I begin to question myself as to how I had originally came to my decision.
So, thanks again for the debate, I hope it helped to clarify kind of where I stand.
Oh, and sorry for my comment-bombing on this thread.
Smokin Joe said this on August 23rd, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Ali, what’s up fam? I appreciate the linkup. I have to say though, this dude ethers all arguments against Vick:
http://www.sohhoverit.com/2007/08/22/the-public-lynching-of-michael-vick/
B. --I RUN THIS SHIT-- said this on August 24th, 2007 at 9:45 am
While I agree Vick is probably getting more notoriety than deserved, and also agree that there is clearly prejudice against Vick, your arguement is weaker with the logical inconsistencies above.
Dog fighting is clearly a crime. It is not a sport. It is a crime. Make no mistake, and no excuses about that. If there is a ‘culture’ that thinks dog fighting is OK, then shame on that culture; it needs to stop immediately.
Vick’s problems are not just in dog fighting. he appears to have been very cruel to the animals. If you defend him, then your posture is 1.) It doesn’t matter that Vick killed dogs, because after all they are only dogs, or 2.) the Federal Gov’t is lying, which is a very substantial charge.
Vick plead guilty. Did his lawyers sell him out? Did they lie too? Let’s establish that fact. Thus Vick did the deed. If this basic fact is not accepted, then we cannot discuss the Vick case any further, because you call into question the basic guilty plea. Then the fundamental issue switches to Michael Vick as political prisioneer.
Part of Vick’s problem was that he lied to his coach, owner, team, and league. What’s the excuse for that?
You say Tom Brady would not suffer the same public media blitz. Purely speculation, and wild inaccurate speculation at that. That weakens your case.
You make a case for the differential treatment of black and white athletes in terms of unmarried fatherhood. Good point.
However, wild accusations drawing in George Bush, and Iraq, and Vick is distracting, illogical, and very much weakens the arguement.
The argument should be that Vick serves his time, then should be given an opportunity to make a living at whatever work he chooses (unless barred as a felon). If an NFL team wants him, then he should be free to play for them.
All NFL players should be treated equally.
RG said this on August 24th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
@Joe
He plead guilty because he had no other choice. Consider the circumstances. Think before you post.
He was already found guilty in the public eye, which is more than enough to ‘taint’ this case.
And doing so isn’t the same as confessing to it. In Vick’s case it means that he knows the Feds were out to hang him, so he’s merely making the best of a bad situation. If you think his trial would resemble anything close to ‘fair’, you are sadly mistaken.
@RG
They should, but they clearly are not. One example that jumps in my mind is:
I remember Terrell Owens’ sideline blowup at Greg Knapp. He was immediately labeled a “disturbance,” and a “locker room cancer” among other things.
Peyton Manning had to be restrained from yelling at the Indy O-coordinator just weeks later, and he’s “showing his fire,” and is “a true competitor.”
If you have any common sense, the preferential treatment of whites vs. blacks in the media is irrefutable. And the treatment of white vs. blacks in the justice system…well, let me just say “google it.”
Also, I find it funny that everyone who finds what Vick did so bad isn’t out there expressing their outrage over the hunting laws in this country (among other things). You mean to tell me that it’s not ok to fight dogs, but it is ok to go out and mercilessly killing whatever animal (that’s legal to kill in your state) for nothing but SPORT?
Killing is killing is killing.
Vick’s real crimes are:
1)Obviously, he clearly chose the wrong animal.
2)He’s black, wears gold teeth, cornrows, and doesn’t shuck and jive on command. And as such, he epitomizes the mainstream American perception of a “thug.” 5 minutes after the charges were made public you had everyone talking about how he should banned permanently from the NFL, and how he should be jailed. That would be fine, if there was any actual evidence that the charges were true.
Much like Barry Bonds, nothing has to actually proven against you in order for you to be slayed in the media. If they don’t like you, you’re known for having a “bad attitude” etc, you go down. It’s simply the way it is.
And if you really think had that been Tom Brady or Brett Favre in the place of Vick the reaction would be the same, you are definitely in denial.
manny b said this on August 24th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
^That should read “among other things outlined in the above sohhoverit link”
That guy made all excellent points.
manny b said this on August 24th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Vick being persecuted like this has nothing to do with his race or ethnicity. He was a media darling before this came up, so when he’s tied to something as eye-catching as a “dog fighting conspiracy” should one expect that the story be subtly announced?
If either Tom Brady or Brett Favre were to have property raided by the Feds FOR ANY REASON, the media would have a field day and they would be in the same lime light Vick is in today.
Quote: “When black athletes and entertainers have children out of wedlock they are vilafied as deadbeats dads and oh that’s “typical behavior” for “them”. I think White America is still racist because no one really said a word or thought differently of Tom Brady after he fathered a child with his ex-girlfriend. ”
That is a racist statement. I think most of “white america” couldn’t care less about athletes having kids out of wedlock… in fact, I bet there a many professional athletes who have children out of wedlock who the public NEVER hears about… perhaps us hearing about Brady’s kid should be seen as improper media coverage BECAUSE HE’S WHITE and this is just OUT OF CHARACTER for “them.”
Quote: “You make a case for the differential treatment of black and white athletes in terms of unmarried fatherhood. Good point.”
I agreed with almost everything RG posted until that quote. “Good point?” What point did he make? I didn’t see any cites to his point. I just saw him make a statement that antique stereotypes are out there. The last person I heard call a black guy a “deadbeat” (or comparible) for having kids out of marriage was Chris Rock. And I think that joke was actually about not paying child support. That joke flew years ago… and most people are over it by now. Get with the times.
Matt G said this on August 24th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Quote: “Dog fighting is clearly a crime. It is not a sport. It is a crime. Make no mistake, and no excuses about that. If there is a ‘culture’ that thinks dog fighting is OK, then shame on that culture; it needs to stop immediately.”
That statement is the best statement of this entire thread.
Matt G said this on August 24th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
I believe he did have a choice - he could have gone to trial, where I’ve learned, he would have probably been found guilty of most if not all the charges brought to him.
Instead he’s getting the minimum Federal Statutes charged against him. I just really was ticked off that he had the nerve to declare “Let all the evidence come out, and I will be exonerated.” I think the Justice Dept. did have a very good case against Vick, but through good wheeling and dealing, he’ll be serving minimum time for it.
Just like any other celebrity or athlete. While he may have been a bigger name, he would share no different an experience than another face of an organization in the same situation.
Smokin Joe said this on August 24th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Again, you have some support here from people who agree that there are overt and subtle prejudices in American society. Don’t waste that support with illogical arguments.
Hunting and dog killing are entirely different animals (so to speak).
People have gone so far as to say any carnivore need not critisize Michael Vick. Wrong, there is a major difference between Vick and Outback Steak patrons.
First, dog fighting is illegal. Cruelty to animals is illegal. Breeding dogs for fighting, putting the mutts on steroids, then brutally killing them is illegal. Has been for a long time. The dog fighting/cruelty argument/ hunting anaology stops there. One is illegal, and if done properly, the other is entirely legal.
Anyone, black or white can hunt or fish, and it is legal. Anyone black or white can fight dogs, and it remains illegal.
Why is that? Because in the USA, one may hunt a wild animal (if not protected). One does not hunt or kill or be cruel to a domestic animal. Sorry, that is the culture. You cannot go out and shoot your neighbor’s dog for a Bar-B-Que. However, you can hunt coyotes in certain areas. Coyotes are not domestic animals.
One cannot kill cats for food in America. Domestic.
One cannot be cruel to domestic animals, and barn animals. Law. If an animal is sacrificed for food, that act should be rapid and as painless as possible.
One may argue that hunting or fishing is cruel. I can understand that. However the Vick argument is bass-awkwards saying that cruelty and killing of dogs is hunky-dory because Dick Cheney kills clipped-winged birds. Neither action is right.
Vick cruelly fought dogs, and killed a domestic (pet) animal. These are illegal. Now either he was framed — which is Govt malfesance, and we should talk about that abuse, or he is guilty.
A point should be made that America should move on, and let Vick face up to his rehab without dragging this on and on. Points should not be made that excuse or explain his actions as analogy to hunting, or that this is a sport, or that George Bush is an idiot.
RG said this on August 24th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
I’m not calling dogfighting a sport. But a dog is an animal just like a fish, a deer, a bear, a coyote, a bird, etc. They’re all animals, I don’t seperate domestic and wild. Only in America does a society love dogs more than humans. The penalty doesn’t fit the crime, he’s being persecuted like he killed a human being. Why wasn’t the Ram’s Little persecuted like this? He killed a mother for god’s sake. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot, drinking, driving and murdering is much better than dogfighting.
I don’t expect much from my entertainers, just that they don’t rape or murder people and put on a good show, that’s all, they’re not my role models. All, I’m saying is that this is a good guy who never caused anyone problems , was pretty quiet and humble throughout his career in college and the pros and I believe he just messed up, but deserves a shot at redemption. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance. Wouldn’t you want one?
alisbasement said this on August 25th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
You’re right Matt, that was a racist/generalized comment. I shouldn’t fight a generalization with another generalization. I wrote a lot of my post out of frustration and so it’s not going to be completely PC. I hate to ever use race in any case, but racism is still alive and very strong. Just type in Michael Vick into google or youtube and read through the comments. You’ll see some gems like “what else do you expect from a nigger” and “he’s black, he was bound to screw up” and many more. This is just vile filth and it’s rampant all over the web, yea there’s nothing you can do about it, it’s free speech, but at least people should be more aware it’s going on. Maybe White America doesn’t care as much as I think, but from my own experiences and conversations in school and at work, I hear the types of comment people make when you’re watching the news or reading the paper, the comments are alwasy skewed when it comes to black entertainers vs white entertainers. When a black entertainer screws up, it’s “it was bound to happen” versus when a white entertainer screws up, it’s “how unfortunate, I never saw that coming.” I think Vick is being persecuted more than that WWE wrestler who killed his family and himself, isn’t that sad? I’m not saying its fact, just my observations, and that’s what I’m expressing through my blogs.
alisbasement said this on August 25th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
1) With special interest groups that feed on inequality to survive - even the minutest racist comment (even if harmless to a certain degree) will be blown out of proportion to justify the group’s existence, thus leading to Racism NEVER ending.
2) Vick may have been unfairly perceived by the media frenzy, but that’s the masses fault - if they didn’t pay stupid money to buy headlines, then maybe there wouldn’t have been such a Firestorm.
3) Actually, the NFL isn’t treating Vick fairly. A friend dropped this list on my site:
NFL does allow:
Wife beaters (Dana Stubblefield, OJ Simpson, Rod Martin, et al)
accesssory to murder (Ray Lewis, Rae Caruth)
assualt and battery (Pacman Jones, Lawrence Taylor, Bill Romanowski)
steroids (all players dope heavily)
drunk driving & speed (Antonio Bryant, Mercury Morris, Warren Wells)
illegal gambling (Michael Vick and $1 BILLION each week on NFL games)
Corrupt owners
Corrupt Disney-ESPN officers
Drunken fans
Hypocrites
And, the honorable one, Ali from this great site dropped this story:
You forgot Leonard Little of the Rams, who after a drunken birthday in 1998, crashed into and killed another motorist, Susan Gutweiler. When tested, his blood alcohol level measured 0.19 percent. Little received 90 days in jail, four years probation and 1000 hours of community service.
Six years later, Little was again arrested for drunk driving and speeding. Little was acquitted of driving while intoxicated, but was convicted of the misdemeanor speeding charge.
On Week 11 of the 2006 NFL season, Little signed a 3-year extension with the Rams.
So really, unless the NFLPA starts making some noise, or the NFL starts treating everyone EQUALLY, Vick could be in place for a horrible precedent to take place.
4) And hey, if it were done to Brady, as a HUGE Pats fan, I would have to take Brady’s side from the get-go. Even if determined guilty, who are we to judge? We never truly know the WHOLE case and the facts.
So, while Ali’s original quote may have been more emotional than normal, it is Human-Nature to do so. And like any other (normally functioning and logical person), he is open to those who question his motive and actions, and takes them all into account to reform his opinion.
I mean, I now understand a lot more of where he is coming from, and what his point may be -
I’m sure Ali is for the Justice towards Criminals, but he is MOST DEFINITELY also for equal punishments and equal Justice all around - and if Vick is banned from the NFL.. well..
That is completely not equal to the punishments other scumbags have gotten from the NFL.
And hell, you never know - over the course of the next year, couple years, Vick can start a Dog Shelter/Sanctuary, or use some of his fortune towards doing other good things.
He has taken the first step towards redemption - Accepting Guilt. While the plea kinda is weak towards penalizing him - he still has a chance over the next few months to improve his image.
Also - great Racial comparison of T.O. and Peyton.
Smokin Joe said this on August 26th, 2007 at 12:32 am
I have been torn about this from the moment it was announced. As a Hokie alum, I am a Vick supporter. As a dog-owner, I can’t quite understand dog fighting. But as a young American, I see the parallels between legal hunting and illegal dog-fighting and question the laws.
I do truly think that Vick is setup to take this harder than he deserves. I think with all the turmoil going on with law-breaking in sports (MLB steroids + records breaking, NBA gambling + game fixing, NFL too many to list) the NFL feels the need to be harder than normal… which is unfair to Vick.
I wouldn’t consider Benoit (WWE guy) to be in the same league as the rest of these law-breaking athletes (no pun intended). WWE is more of a glorified circus act than a sport (in my opinion) and he just went crazy killing his family and himself. There was nothing left to do for the media but report the facts as they rolled in and let the public shake their heads in disbelief.
I enjoy reading all of these perspectives because I am struggling to make up my own mind about what should be done to Vick. I do know that I hope to see him on the football field again someday.
Matt G said this on August 26th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Joe, I appreciate the kind words, it was very nice of you. You know I’m just a diehard sports fan and like I said, I don’t expect much from them because I know they’re not role models. Inside this 26 y.o. body is a 12 y.o. kid who just saw the Feds take down his hero, so I’m throwing a fuss and a pity party. I just really enjoyed watching Vick play, in college & the pros, I mean he was electrifying, he made the NFL fun to watch. I know there are amazing athletes, but there has never been one like him before and I don’t see another one coming (in my opinion).
You’ve got a great laundry list of offenses there. You’re absolutely right that the NFLPA dropped the ball on this one, they weren’t even present, not even a peep out of them.
I hope that you’re right in that Vick gets a chance to redeem himself because I honestly feel that he loves dogs and he’s not a total monster. So, I can see him starting a dog shelter or recovery center to show he’s a changed man. I look at it like this, I’m 26 and he’s 27, I could have made the same mistake, I would feel terrible in this situation and this persecution would be killing me. After all, we are all just human.
If he does get a 2nd shot at playing, I hope that he gives the 1 finger salute to Nike and creates his own shoe line that gives proceeds to animal shelters. That would be a great gesture.
Yea, the comparison of T.O. and Peyton was really good. It’s like what happened during Katrina. When you saw a black person taking food, they were “looting” but when it was a white person, they were “collecting.” We need to narrow the divide, but this incident only widens the gap.
alisbasement said this on August 26th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I totally feel you Matt. You and I watched Vick for 2 years in college, we walked the same halls as him. It’s hard for us to pass judgment so fast. I know it pains me to see a fellow Hokie fall.
This whole ordeal has just frustrated me, and while I’m definitely upset with him for getting in this mess, I just feel helpless knowing that he’s being unfairly treated and paying for the years of deceit from these immoral professional sports leagues. When will they be judged and persecuted? Probably never, unless the fans take a stance.
alisbasement said this on August 26th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
“One does not hunt or kill or be cruel to a domestic animal.”
So if my neighbor’s goose flew over into my yard, do I get to kill it?
Traditionally, it’s an animal that most states allow you to hunt, but it can be domesticated as well. In any case, your comment underlines the failings of this case quite well.
“Hunting” IMO is capturing/killing animals for SURVIVAL. Shooting pheasants, geese, deer etc when you can easily drive a few blocks to Super Fresh is KILLING for SPORT.
So it isn’t clearly a matter of dogs being a domestic animal. I think that’s irrelevant.
Regarding the cruel manner in which the dogs were put to death, it still doesn’t compare to what goes down at your local slaughter house where livestock are regularly drowned, electrocuted, suffocated, beheaded and worse. And the living conditions aren’t exactly what one could call “cozy” either.
I will agree that we should move on though. Let dude do his time, and hopefully we’ll see him shaking the shit out of linebackers in the NFL again.
manny b said this on August 28th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Here’s another one for everyone to chew on. Have you ever viewed bullfighting as cruel? Well guess what it is!
I just read this on an MSN article, usually not the best source for defending black athletes, which they’re still not doing, but they made some good points:
“And aside from Henry E. Hudson of the U.S. District Court in Richmond, who is to judge him?
Is it an American public that regards dogfighting as a horror and bullfighting as a tourist destination?
Is it Gene Upshaw, who distanced himself from Vick so fast you would’ve thought he was a retired player?
Is it the NFL establishment, whose ace security force somehow managed to miss Vick’s operation for six straight years?”
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7162218?MSNHPHMA
alisbasement said this on August 28th, 2007 at 11:04 am
ooo, i liked that article
Smokin Joe said this on August 28th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Actually, Europeans have severe penalties for animal torture, and are light years ahead of Americans in the area of animal welfare.
If there is anything good about the Michael Vick story, it is that there is an emerging increased awareness about animal cruelty and animal fighting. There is so much anger about this issue. If we channel it into a positive direction, hopefully, something good can come of it. However…
I watched Vick’s public apology with my little son who USED TO wear Michael Vick jerseys to school. It is disturbing to think a certain percentage of the population is honestly going to be swayed by Michael Vick’s “enlightenment” carefully crafted by his overpaid attorneys. Call me a cynic, but I don’t believe a man who has been allegedly torturing animals since childhood coincidentally has a religious epiphany as a result of getting caught and losing his job. I hope I am wrong.
I think it is a sad commentary that we, as a culture, are using the Vick story to compare “What’s worse?” “What’s worse”, we ask, “carelessly fathering illegitimate children, or dogfighting?”. “Dogfighting or gambling?” “Dogfighting or rape?” “Dogfighting or racism?” “Dogfighting or hateful nationalism?” “Dogfighting or (fill in the blank)….?” The comparisons to dogfighting have been endless.
Dogfighting is one more piece of evidence our country is in need of a spiritual transformation (please note I said spiritual and not necessarily religious). Animals are sentient beings - they feel pain, and they suffer, just like we do. They are not more important, or less important than human beings, but like human beings, they are important, too.
Dogfighting pits one dog against another until one of them dies. The survivor gets his flesh torn off, ears ripped off, eyes pulled out, etc., and the reward for being “a winner” is to writhe in pain until the next fight. Enough said. The pictures make my flesh crawl. The losers are tortured, beaten, starved, electrocuted or drowned. For what? Because these poor creatures were unlucky enough to be born a dog!
Every major faith teaches its followers to be responsible stewards of animals and the Earth. Please help us get the word out that caring for animals, just like caring for people, is an important part of just being a decent person and citizen. If we make this a priority, there will be no more dogfighting horror stories, and no more pointless comparisons of evils. Let us all rise, together, to be better people than we are today, shall we?
Chaplain Nancy Cronk
Founder, http://www.AnimalChaplains.com
animalchaplain said this on August 29th, 2007 at 2:25 am
Oh, really Nancy? Europe is more advanced than the US? Does that include Spain, where bullfighting is legal and a popular tourist attraction? FYI, this usually results in the killing of the bull. Also, what about the Running of the Bulls, which often times results in cruelty? Plus, if we move further East, there are countries where animals you consider pets are eaten inlcuding dogs, cats, etc, do you think they’re slaughtered in a “humane” fashion? Hmm, I think you need to get your facts checked, “chaplain”. If you actually believe that load of crap, please move to Europe.
I strongly disagree with you that he wasn’t being honest in his apology. Yes ma’am you are a cynic and a hater, there was no prepared speech, no notes, no papers involved, he spoke from the heart and left it at that. He’s going to use the next year to mature (like he said in his speech “I acted immature” - so he’s taking responsiblity) and to redeem himself. I think he won a lot of people back with his apology.
I seriously doubt that as a child he was doing this, please. This man is only 27 years old and he’s supported by a loving family. I can’t think of one person who hasn’t made a huge mistake and faced this amount of persecution and not become spiritual, who else can he turn to, you all (the public) have banished him, so all he has is his family and God, I see no wrong there. But who are we to judge, isn’t that God’s job, “chaplain”?
People like you make me sick, you build a person up by saying all these great things and buy their merchandise but as soon as they make a mistake, you’re the first to knock them down. I’m sure you’re not perfect and have made mistakes, should we publicly judge you also?
And, IMHO, people like you are a little crazy, dogs will never be more important than humans because THEY’LL NEVER CHANGE THE WORLD. I believe in God and understand that cruelty to animals is wrong. But, it’s insane to even suggest such a thing. Also, the work you’re doing is not that honorable, so get off your high horse. I find it extremely sad that some dogs in America live better lives than children who live below the poverty line in this country, that’s sick. Why don’t you turn your “Animal Chaplain” job into a service for kids in poverty. I think that would benefit this world far more than caring for animals, you know why? because they can actually make a difference in this world. Think about it, let’s take your situation, you have a son and you have a pet(s). If something were to happen to you, would you want some organization taking care of your son or your pet(s)? Please seek help if you believe your pets are more important than your son.
alisbasement said this on August 29th, 2007 at 9:09 am
So many illogical thoughts.
MannyB, you may define hunting in your own idiosyncratic way, however it is legally defined in another way, which does not include ’survival’. You insist on defending the indefensible, just because you like the defendant. I don’t believe the justice system works that way.
Dog fighting has long been illegal for many reasons, not the least is the excessive cruelty to the animals. If cannot backtrack and offer lame analogies; these hold no strength in legal arguments.
Dog fighting is simply illegal. Bull fighting is not illegal in some countries. There may be an inequity, so get out and lobby for either law to be changed. (and I agree bull fighting is cruel)
You positions can be construed like this:
I can kill and eat my neighbor because some tribe in Africa practices cannibalism. Try that to defend Jeffrey Dahlmer.
I can kill my boss and shrink his head, because after all there are some cultures where this is acceptable.
There are few excuses. Vick propagated a brutal illegal activity. Pay his dues and move on.
And no you cannot kill your neighbor’s goose. That’s illegal.
RG said this on August 29th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Heh… Maybe I’m a mean-spirited guy, or I’m cruel or.. well - I dunno.
But while I feel sorry for the Bull when they eventually kill it - I really have to respect the History and Tradition of Bull-Fighting and the dance between the Matador and Beast. While the Bull dies, it is in a rather respectable way - and you can’t deny that the Matador and anyone involved with the fiercest of Bulls most definitely hold the animal in the highest regard, and not as a toy to be played with.
Plus, sometimes the bull gets the Matador - which, while horrifying, just adds to the risk and intrigue surrounding the.. sport? Ehh, Tradition (yeah that works).
Running of the bulls? Kinda ridiculous - so many freakin people get injured/killed. Pamplona has the most hospitals per person than any other place in the world.
I also enjoy watching the excitement and frenzy for certain events that pit animals against one another. Even in Dog-Fighting - it is cruel, but the sport and motivation behind it, I respect. However, the inhumane treatment of the smaller dogs and defeated, I guess that’s where I contradict my understanding of Dog-fighting. Perhaps a 1st world country is no place for the continuation of even tradition if it involves the cruelty of animals.
I mean, on TV I watched a special that included a fight in Thailand (I believe) of a Snake Vs. a Ferret. I mean, the amount of people surrounding the pit and making bets and cheering on the fight - I can’t be the one to tell them it is wrong.
When you move internationally, you really have to break the bounds of specifics and have to understand that Society and Culture as a whole need to be taken into account. While Snake/Ferret fighting is wrong here - they may despise other things we do as a society, and I don’t really want to start that argument.
Basically, if those dogs died instantly or were put up for adoption, then I don’t think I’d have such a negative view on this whole case against Vick.
To me, it is all about the respect that is bestowed upon the Warrior. I mean, throughout humankind (we do exist in a smudge of an era in time), we have glorified our Warriors and gave them the proper respect for they may make the greatest sacrifice as the cost. Once we start taking death for granted - then we got something wrong with how the motivation for battle was brought about.
Smokin Joe said this on August 29th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
This is what I was waiting for, I knew God you were listening! I don’t need to defend Vick anymore, a dead crazy rich white lady just did it for me. This would only happen in America, I told you all this is the only country that values a dogs life more than a human being.
“Real estate billionaire Leona Helmsley left $12 million in her will for her dog Trouble but cut out two of her four grandchildren entirely.”
read the full story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070829/people_nm/leona_helmsley_will_dc_3
alisbasement said this on August 29th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
@RG
LMAO @ this dude.
What the hell are you talking about? All the examples I gave hold true in the U.S.
I didn’t even mention a foreign country but if you wanna throw in off the wall shit in some lame attempt to help rationalize a very naive point…then knock yourself out.
The FACTS are this…America largely got up in arms about a man who supposedly ran a dogfighting operation for both profit and sport.
…Yet this same group of people largely ignore an even bigger majority (of fellow Americans) who go out and kill innocent animals for profit & sport.
The difference between the two is the latter group doesn’t make the animals fight each other before mercilessly slaughtering them….and they have laws that protect their ‘right’ to hunt.
But both are NEEDLESSLY KILLING INNOCENT animals. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that.
..and the examples of hypocrisy in this case go on and on.
Bottom line is, I could not care less what the ‘law’ says in this matter since it is quite clearly so wrong.
You act as if American law is infallible.
Try again.
manny b said this on August 30th, 2007 at 4:54 pm